The Original
 Herpes Homepage
 

Herpes Survival Kit - a specially designed pack containing everything you need to combat herpes and cold sore outbreaks (at a minimum cost to your wallet).

Advertisements appearing here do not constitute endorsement of those products by HHP management.
First time visitor? Please Learn about Registering and read our policy page.
{Home}{Awareness}{Research}{Treatment}{HHP FAQ}{Bookstore}{Bio/Info Page}

HHP Discussion Forums

Subject: "Herpes vaccines explained.." Archived thread - Read only
 
  Previous Topic | Next Topic
Printer-friendly copy     Email this topic to a friend    
Conferences Technical Topic #2533
Reading Topic #2533
Rajahadmin
Charter Member
13678 posts
Oct-19-06, 01:01 PM (CST)
Click to EMail Rajah Click to send private message to Rajah Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
"Herpes vaccines explained.."
 
In looking over Bill Halford's material I read the following discussion of the various herpes vaccine attempts in the past and found it fascinating reading.
http://vmb.montana.edu/faculty/halford/VaccineDevelopmentEfforts.htm

One of the things that I had not been aware of was this from section 2.3: "High antibody titers are not part of immunological "memory." Immunoglobulin G (IgG) has a half-life of 3 weeks and B cells only survive for a few days upon differentiating into antibody-producing plasma cells. Thus, the titers of HSV-specific IgG in asymptomatic carriers can only be explained by frequent re-stimulation of HSV-specific memory B cells to initiate antigen-dependent cell division and differentiation into IgG-producing plasma cells (62)."

There is a LOT of great information in that article if you'll wade through it. Many thanks to Bill for making that information available in a readable form.


"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain


  Printer-friendly page | Top

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Herpes vaccines explained.. C16679admin Oct-19-06 1
     I think you understand it fine.. This is new to me, too... Rajahadmin Oct-19-06 2
         RE: I think you understand it fine.. This is new to me, too. Jessica Oct-19-06 3
             RE: I think you understand it fine.. This is new to me, too. C16679admin Oct-19-06 4
         RE: I think you understand it fine.. This is new to me, too. C16679admin Oct-19-06 5
             The IgG number doesn't mean much once.. Rajahadmin Oct-19-06 6
                 RE: The IgG number doesn't mean much once.. graceadmin Oct-20-06 7
                     Yes, it's in the library.. Rajahadmin Oct-20-06 8
                         RE: Yes, it's in the library.. graceadmin Oct-20-06 9
             RE: I think you understand it fine.. ...and so do I. BH Oct-23-06 10
                 RE: I think you understand it fine.. ...and so do I. auntiejessiadmin Oct-23-06 11
                     RE: I think you understand it fine.. ...and so do I. C16679admin Oct-23-06 12
                     RE: I think you understand it fine.. ...and so do I. auntiejessiadmin Oct-23-06 13
                         RE: I think you understand it fine.. ...and so do I. Bahama Oct-23-06 14
                             RE: I think you understand it fine.. ...and so do I. BH Oct-23-06 16
                         RE: I think you understand it fine.. ...and so do I. BH Oct-23-06 15
                             RE: I think you understand it fine.. ...and so do I. auntiejessiadmin Oct-23-06 17
                                 RE: I think you understand it fine.. ...and so do I. Bahama Oct-23-06 18
                                     Herpes is just like humans in that.. Rajahadmin Oct-24-06 19
                                         RE: Herpes is just like humans in that.. graceadmin Oct-24-06 20
                                             RE: Herpes is just like humans in that.. BH Oct-24-06 21
                                         RE: Herpes is just like humans in that.. Bahama Oct-24-06 22
                                             RE: Herpes is just like humans in that.. graceadmin Oct-25-06 23

Conferences | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic
C16679admin
Member since Aug-29-06
6741 posts
Oct-19-06, 06:51 PM (CST)
Click to send private message to C16679 Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
1. "RE: Herpes vaccines explained.."
In response to message #0
 
   Ack!! What the heck does that mean? The IgG cells (or whatever they are) die off regularly, so even if you are asymptomatic, the fact that they can get a positive IgG test result means the virus is moving around, either coming to the surface without causing bad symptoms or trying to invade other cells in the ganglia or something that isn't actually resulting in the virus being on the skin surface, but that the virus is active very often resulting in constantly produced IgG which is how you get a positive test result??

Sorry for the ridiculously long sentence. That's what it sounds like to me, am I understanding any of that correctly?

I already have other questions, but maybe I'll wait and see if I am understanding this correctly first, it may change my other questions.

Thanks Rajah for posting that and to anyone who answers me.

C.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Rajahadmin
Charter Member
13678 posts
Oct-19-06, 09:23 PM (CST)
Click to EMail Rajah Click to send private message to Rajah Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
2. "I think you understand it fine.. This is new to me, too..."
In response to message #1
 
What Bill is saying is that if there was no viral activity at all, the immune system wouldn't see it and the IgG antibodies would fade away gradually over a period of weeks. The fact that, in my case, my HSV2 IgG test showed >5.00 indicates that my virus is still active in some way since I've got plenty of antibodies.

I think this answers another point that has come up from time to time here and that is, if there was a "cure" that magically eliminated the virus from our bodies, the IgG antibody count would fade away and after a few months we'd test negative. Previously, we've maintained that once you have the antibodies, you've got them forever. Interesting, as Spock would say.


"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Jessica
Guest
Oct-19-06, 09:36 PM (CST)
 
3. "RE: I think you understand it fine.. This is new to me, too."
In response to message #2
 
   Interesting, but what about people who don't test positive with the IGG antibodies and still have herpes?


  Printer-friendly page | Top
C16679admin
Member since Aug-29-06
6741 posts
Oct-19-06, 09:40 PM (CST)
Click to send private message to C16679 Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
4. "RE: I think you understand it fine.. This is new to me, too."
In response to message #3
 
   Jessica,

There's a thread in support about that. The quick answer (and I'm not one of the experts here!) is that the body makes many different types of cellular responses to the HSV infection. The IgG test is only testing IgG. If your body is making very little of that, but possibly responding with the other things it does, the IgG test won't show anything.

C.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
C16679admin
Member since Aug-29-06
6741 posts
Oct-19-06, 09:52 PM (CST)
Click to send private message to C16679 Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
5. "RE: I think you understand it fine.. This is new to me, too."
In response to message #2
 
   Rajah--

Thanks again. Yeah, totally interesting, and no kidding, perfect point about the "cures" and the antibody count.

But, yes, that's what is kind of freaking me out. I am seemingly asymptomatic, but my IgG was also "greater than 5.0"! So then I think holy sh^t, is it really THAT active, but I still think I'm not having symptoms? That's why I was sort of wondering if it's possible that some of this activity is taking place deep inside the body, on that cellular level. Like the stuff Howl was explaining in that Support thread...(and I'm sure I'm misstating things, but hopefully you get the gist). We know the HSV is active when it comes to the surface of the skin either asymptomatically or with lesions, etc. And we know from studies that some people aren't shedding every few weeks (right?). So I'm wondering if there is another type of "active" behavior, for instance, is the virus not just waiting quietly in the nerve cells, but is it still being "active", trying to come out and infect other nerve cells or fight off the immune system cells...and is this part of what keeps the antibody count regenerating, and possibly without coming to the surface of the skin?

Do we know if that's what's happening or am I exhibiting a good imagination?

C.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Rajahadmin
Charter Member
13678 posts
Oct-19-06, 10:23 PM (CST)
Click to EMail Rajah Click to send private message to Rajah Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
6. "The IgG number doesn't mean much once.."
In response to message #5
 
it's in the postive region, say above 3.5. I'm not the one to explain this very well, but a high IgG test result doesn't mean much other than just that you do have the virus somewhere. My IgG is >5.00 as of a couple weeks ago. I got a HerpeSelect HSV2 IgG as party of my getting ready to participate in the shedding study so I know. Anyway, the number is somewhere above 5, it could be 100 for all I know, but I'm not having any symptoms that I can recognize.

Maybe Bill can explain sometime when he's got time.

"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain


  Printer-friendly page | Top
graceadmin
Charter Member
11175 posts
Oct-20-06, 07:10 AM (CST)
Click to EMail grace Click to send private message to grace Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
7. "RE: The IgG number doesn't mean much once.."
In response to message #6
 
"And we know from studies that some people aren't shedding every few weeks (right?). So I'm wondering if there is another type of "active" behavior, for instance, is the virus not just waiting quietly in the nerve cells, but is it still being "active", trying to come out and infect other nerve cells or fight off the immune system cells...and is this part of what keeps the antibody count regenerating, and possibly without coming to the surface of the skin?"


On average you shed the virus about 45 days a year whether you notice symptoms or not. The virus is still active in your body even if you aren't get obvious lesions - it's shedding from the skin periodically but your body is keeping it under control enough that it's not able to cause obvious "classic" lesions that you can't help but notice. Perhaps this article might help you out - I've included the link to the abstract. Not sure if this one is our pdf library or not but you can check for it there too.

Reactivation of Genital Herpes Simplex Virus Type 2 Infection in Asymptomatic Seropositive Persons
Anna Wald, M.D. et al.
N Engl J Med. 2000 Mar 23;342(12):844-50
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/342/12/844?view=abstractpmid=10727588


grace

The first step in stopping the perceived stigma about genital herpes - is to stop believing in it yourself


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Rajahadmin
Charter Member
13678 posts
Oct-20-06, 11:00 AM (CST)
Click to EMail Rajah Click to send private message to Rajah Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
8. "Yes, it's in the library.."
In response to message #7
 
http://www.myracoon.net/pdfs/0342-0844.pdf

"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain


  Printer-friendly page | Top
graceadmin
Charter Member
11175 posts
Oct-20-06, 05:05 PM (CST)
Click to EMail grace Click to send private message to grace Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
9. "RE: Yes, it's in the library.."
In response to message #8
 
Now I feel guilt for being lazy rajah...lol. Thanks for looking it up for me

grace

The first step in stopping the perceived stigma about genital herpes - is to stop believing in it yourself


  Printer-friendly page | Top
BH
Guest
Oct-23-06, 04:41 PM (CST)
 
10. "RE: I think you understand it fine.. ...and so do I."
In response to message #5
 
   Hi C and Rajah,

I missed this post for a few days, and so did not add anything yet.

C, I think you are dead on in your interpretation of .....
"Holy S---! You mean the virus is this active?"

Yes, that is exactly what I mean. My research has not touched on this topic in a long time (since 1996), but lots of other people are still investigating this (Robert Hendricks in Pittsburgh, Lawrence Corey in Seattle, Diethilde Theil in Munich, and Georges Verjans in Rotterdam). When so many independent people all find the same thing, you can be certain that it is correct.

Theil's 2003 abstract illustrates the point well, that "latent" herpes infection is not completely latent at the molecular level.
Abstract here:
http://ajp.amjpathol.org/cgi/content/full/163/6/2179

The basic idea is this.

When you get infected with herpes simplex virus, if the initial infection is enough for you to get recurrences, then chances are that you have about 1000 to 25,000 neurons in your body that harbor the latent virus (i.e., like an extra chromosome). That may sound like a lot of infected cells, but just remember that the number of cells in your body is greater than 10^12 (more than 1,000,000,000,000 cells make up your body).

To keep the math simple, let's say that you have exactly 10,000 latently infected neurons in your body....harbor viral DNA which is mostly silent.

If you look at the cells as a group, they are definitely latent.....nothing happening in 99.9% of those cells...pretty quiet on the whole. However, the picture that has been emerging for the past 10 years is that about once a week, one of those 10,000 cells actually leaves the "latent pool of cells" and starts making infectious HSV again. Most of the time this "single-cell reactivation event" is no big deal because your immune system does its job...no disease results, and precious little shedding of infectious virus occurs.

These low-level, single cell reactivation events occurring once per week are plenty to keep your immune cells busy, and thus when you look in the nerves that harbor "latent HSV" infection, there is a chronic low-level immune response.

Robert Hendricks' lab really found a smoking gun in 2003 when they showed that 70% of the T cells that chronically hang out in the latent nerves have T cell receptors that are specific for one small part of HSV...glycoprotein B. At random, your chances of finding a T cell with that particular receptor are like your chances of winning the $40 million powerball. The bottom line is that the virus has to be somewhat active in order for the T cells to hover so close to the infected neurons (within 1/100th of an inch of infected neurons).

So, the data says that herpes simplex virus and the immune system have "struck a deal" where the T cells can shut down full blown virus replication that would lead to disease, but the T cells can't figure out how to destroy the virus-infected neurons because the virus slips below the T cell's radar screen at the last second before the T cell gets really pissed (fully activated). In contrast, when you recover from the flu, your T cells nuke every influenza virus-infected cell in your body, because influenza has no such mechanism for entering "stealth mode."

Hope that helps a little.

- Bill


  Printer-friendly page | Top
auntiejessiadmin
Member since May-14-05
16726 posts
Oct-23-06, 05:03 PM (CST)
Click to send private message to auntiejessi Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
11. "RE: I think you understand it fine.. ...and so do I."
In response to message #10
 
Bill -

My totally non-scientific and non-mathematical mind will need some time to digest all of that, but I think I might get it.

Thanks!

Jess

"In those times you seem to forget, I don't mind reminding you that you are a beautiful soul." ~ Cindy Campo

Paragraphs are beautiful things.

You can google, too.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
C16679admin
Member since Aug-29-06
6741 posts
Oct-23-06, 05:07 PM (CST)
Click to send private message to C16679 Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
12. "RE: I think you understand it fine.. ...and so do I."
In response to message #11
 
   Oh, that really, really helps! Thanks, Bill!

C.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
auntiejessiadmin
Member since May-14-05
16726 posts
Oct-23-06, 05:09 PM (CST)
Click to send private message to auntiejessi Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
13. "RE: I think you understand it fine.. ...and so do I."
In response to message #11
 
ok lets see if I get it...

Using C and I as examples - she gets no obs, and I get a bunch.

Does that mean that her body is doing a better job of shutting down viral replication? Or does that mean her virus isn't letting as many of the little buggers slip under the radar?

Or is it neither?

Maybe I don't get it.

Jess

"In those times you seem to forget, I don't mind reminding you that you are a beautiful soul." ~ Cindy Campo

Paragraphs are beautiful things.

You can google, too.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Bahama
Guest
Oct-23-06, 08:46 PM (CST)
 
14. "RE: I think you understand it fine.. ...and so do I."
In response to message #13
 
   Why the hell is this virus so damn tricky anyway? How can it constantly be outsmarting my immune system?


  Printer-friendly page | Top
BH
Guest
Oct-23-06, 10:20 PM (CST)
 
16. "RE: I think you understand it fine.. ...and so do I."
In response to message #14
 
   Hi Bahama,

Good question, which is addressed directly on my website:

http://vmb.montana.edu/faculty/halford/VaccineDevelopmentEfforts.htm

I am teaching right now, so progress on the website is sporadic. However, I hope to get this site completed with illustrations that make it crystal clear what I am saying.

For now, the bottom line is this:
1) most cold viruses are RNA viruses (not super stable)
2) most cold viruses are small (10,000 bases of coding information)
3) most cold viruses have two speeds of replication (fast and faster)

As a result, most viruses are what I call "stupid viruses" and your immune system does its job easily and clears the virus from your body.

In contrast:
1) HSV is a DNA virus....just like the genes you carry from birth to death.....pretty darned stable stuff...DNA maintains its chemical structure even at 500 degrees farenheit

2) HSV has 150,000 bases of coding information.....that gives the virus a lot more tools (genes) to screw with your infected cells and your immune cells

3) HSV can alternate between two extremes of replication rate (fast and OFF). When OFF, no proteins are made and there is no way for your immune cells to figure out which cells are infected. Your immune cells see foreign proteins......no proteins ...no immune clearance.


In the news, we always hear about "viruses" like they are all the same. This is simply a lack of good information. If the smallest viruses like poliovirus were, say, the size of a perch, then the biggest viruses like herpesviruses would be the size of a Great White Shark.

Sure, they are both just "fish", but personally I am lot more scared of 20 foot sharks than perch. The confusion over herpes simplex virus is simply because the description of the virus is either way too simple or way too technical. It isn't that complicated, it's just not explained well anywhere.

Keep asking good questions!

- Bill



  Printer-friendly page | Top
BH
Guest
Oct-23-06, 10:04 PM (CST)
 
15. "RE: I think you understand it fine.. ...and so do I."
In response to message #13
 
   Hi Jess,

First off, great question! Unfortunately, like many great questions, there is no definitive answer yet for why some people get lots of herpes outbreaks, and other people do not. There are several possibilities, but I don't think we really know. There are many CLAIMS about why, but not much clear-cut proof.


The slipping under the radar analogy I gave is perhaps explained better on my website.... http://vmb.montana.edu/faculty/halford/Virologyoflatentinfections.htm

However, this portion of my website is a bit techie, so I don't know how useful it is to you. So, I'll try and explain here.

The big things I was trying to point out about latent HSV infection before are the three following points:
1) for HSV-infected cells to avoid being killed by the T cells they have to shut down infectious virus production for long periods of time (weeks to months to years). Your immune cells see foreign (viral) proteins. As long as the virus (a piece of DNA) can shut itself down, it can hide from the immune cells.

2) Most viruses cannot turn themselves off to avoid being nuked by your immune cells.....thus, you get infected with the flu, and your immune cells eventually clear it from your body

3) Although HSV may be latent in most of your 10,000-odd-infected neurons (hidden) at any given time, there is always a neuron or two that is re-initiating the production of more infectious virus that can be shed / spread.

The common denominator with ALL persistent infections (HIV, herpes, TB) is that the bug has to have a way to cool its engines when the host immune cells close in for the kill....thus, these agents all tend to oscillate between states of active replication when the coast is clear (the host response weakens) and inactivity (latency/dormancy) when the host response heats up.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
auntiejessiadmin
Member since May-14-05
16726 posts
Oct-23-06, 10:22 PM (CST)
Click to send private message to auntiejessi Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
17. "RE: I think you understand it fine.. ...and so do I."
In response to message #15
 
Bill -

ok I get that more I think. I haven't read the site you gave, but I will when I am more alert.

Thanks so much for doing this - I know you are busy.

Jess

"In those times you seem to forget, I don't mind reminding you that you are a beautiful soul." ~ Cindy Campo

Paragraphs are beautiful things.

You can google, too.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Bahama
Guest
Oct-23-06, 11:30 PM (CST)
 
18. "RE: I think you understand it fine.. ...and so do I."
In response to message #17
 
   Yeah, i think i get it too...so i guess we just need smarter immune systems to blast these little buggers while their in latency huh?...but i guess that's never gonna happen...boooooo

It kinda makes me wonder what the virus really wants to do to me anyway, you know. It's inside my body, taking every measure to stay alive and attack whenever possible. If my body didn't eventually recognize it, what would it do...cover me head to toe in oozing sores 'til i die...why, herp? why? what did i ever do to you?

...don't mind me, i'm a little nutty

Anyway, thanks a lot Bill for the info...very, very interesting...and i'm always eager to learn.


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Rajahadmin
Charter Member
13678 posts
Oct-24-06, 08:49 AM (CST)
Click to EMail Rajah Click to send private message to Rajah Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
19. "Herpes is just like humans in that.."
In response to message #18
 
its primary drive is to reproduce and perpetuate the species. Most of the things that humans do is somehow tied to reproduction. We work hard to get a better job so we can make more money so we can attract a better mate to reproduce with.

It can be fun to anthropomorphise herpes, but it's not, IMO, a thinking organism, it just does what it's programmed to do.

"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain


  Printer-friendly page | Top
graceadmin
Charter Member
11175 posts
Oct-24-06, 02:38 PM (CST)
Click to EMail grace Click to send private message to grace Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
20. "RE: Herpes is just like humans in that.."
In response to message #19
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-24-06 AT 07:24 PM (CDST) by muffin (admin)
 
Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions bill It really is appreciated!!

A few of us were just discussing the other day how that we were out in Montana 2 months ago and would've loved to have had lunch or something with you so that we could meet you and thank you personally for what you've contributed to HHP in the past but we totally forgot that that's where you are based Of course 3 women showing up at your office to take you out to lunch might not be the reputation you want to have? he he he You ever need volunteers for any of your vaccine research - just say the word and we'll just "force" ourselves to come back out that way

grace

The first step in stopping the perceived stigma about genital herpes - is to stop believing in it yourself


  Printer-friendly page | Top
BH
Guest
Oct-24-06, 05:09 PM (CST)
 
21. "RE: Herpes is just like humans in that.."
In response to message #20
 
   I'm always up for lunch, and I really wouldn't mind if three women showed up at my office door asking me out....why didn't I ever get offers like that when I was single?

If you are ever in Bozeman, give me a holler. Hopefully if there's a vaccine trial, it will be somewhere else....I think all ten of us in Bozeman already have antibodies to HSV.

- Bill


  Printer-friendly page | Top
Bahama
Guest
Oct-24-06, 07:42 PM (CST)
 
22. "RE: Herpes is just like humans in that.."
In response to message #19
 
   Yeah, programmed to screw me over ...oh, and thanks for the word reference...anthro-what??????...you a smarty-pants huh?!


  Printer-friendly page | Top
graceadmin
Charter Member
11175 posts
Oct-25-06, 09:52 AM (CST)
Click to EMail grace Click to send private message to grace Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
23. "RE: Herpes is just like humans in that.."
In response to message #22
 
You just weren't working hard enough in your research before Bill to warrant a visit from rajah's angels He only sends us out to folks who deserve a visit from us

giggling grace

The first step in stopping the perceived stigma about genital herpes - is to stop believing in it yourself


  Printer-friendly page | Top

Conferences | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

All opinions expressed here by the HHP, its management and participants constitute just that, opinions.
No medical relationship with any participant is implied in any way.
Each individual's personal doctor is responsible for the medical advice and care of that person.